swat4 - which way is the best? [Archive]

Joker432

25-09-09, 10:40 AM

If you're remember there was a almost same theme by Sete "LL only".
But there was a discussion about accident. About "how save officer's life".
About "bad action". Sete was rigth.

You can call it a reply to sete's thread.

Now let's discuss about tactic at all.
Which way is the best? Wich way is stupid.

I wil take 80% of players as 1 player, coz that 80% using a same ,sorry, but stupid tactic ( in my opinion!). Rest 20% of players using another tactic.

Example of stupid tactic:

I saw some moments when players with lethal just afraid to kill. And been killed by sus.

I saw some moments when players was try to taze aimed sus. And been killed by sus.

I saw some moments when players was using bugs(shot @ floor & try to alarm sus then shot him with ll or taze). And civilian been killed by sus.

-- in my opinion players are forget or don't mind that dead suspect better than dead officers.

"- why you think the scores are the main thing"
"- when you got a 100% you are pro"

Stupid? in my opinion - yes.

" - you killed him, ***"
"- he was aimed @ civ"
"- we loosed score"
"- :S"

Stupid? in my opinion - yes.

I dont say that killing is cool, i dont say that LL is bad.

I just wondering.

So what is your way? & in your opinion which is the best?

Lets discuss.

Eliittihemuli

25-09-09, 10:45 AM

My favorite tactic are less lethal guns, usually I just use less lethal shotgun but sometimes I change my mind and take silenced MP5. Which means that I prefer the silenced way :D

Tactics

25-09-09, 01:20 PM

a good matter for discussion. i guess there is no way to find same way as diffrent players have diffrent meanings.

let me starts whit some quote´s of you:
I wil take 80% of players as 1 player, coz that 80% using a same ,sorry, but stupid tactic ( in my opinion!). Rest 20% of players using another tactic.
a tactic can only be bad or stupid if not clear for all what to do or not mind before gaved orders. if this tactics are "stupid", why the most people use them then? just to say 80% use stupid tactics is not significant enough for me. i need some example to make me a impress what are "stupid" tactics for you?!

I saw some moments when players with lethal just afraid to kill. And been killed by sus.
i dont would tell theat "stupid". thats simply hesitant.

I saw some moments when players was using bugs(shot @ floor & try to alarm sus then shot him with ll or taze). And civilian been killed by sus.
bugs..?? only because you use sound, dont meand you use bugs. i dont would see it as bug if u make some noise than suspect start to partol and look where the noise comes from. sound is a part and parcel of the game. so you localize civi voice, runners, doors, partols, hosage situations ect. in my eyes a importent part of the game. and also dont useful in all situations.

in my opinion players are forget or don't mind that dead suspect better than dead officers.
but if a officer walking around and look for the direct suspect contact to get him down, is that sure for the team or himself??

also to be sure the team stay long alife, there is team comunication needed. if diffrent meanings about any tactics, its importent that all who have hints, tell it to the leader. thats teamwork. only because he is leader, dont means he must choose his tactics only. than help is welcome. to point it out: to less communication can bring u the death so if people not ready to communicate, there is no tactic sure.. and if a player is not intrested to communicate whit others, he is for sure wrong on our servers.

"- why you think the scores are the main thing"
"- when you got a 100% you are pro"
i dont see it as main thing but anyway you can see how good your tactics was. if you got 100 whit LL only, its easy but some lethal between it makes it a bit harder. so more or less you can mess your skills whit the scores. good tactics, good scores. if u just get much suspects down, you get less points. it dont means that u used bad tactics. but whit good tactics (and a bit luck because partols or the like) you dont comes up to the direct contact to the suspect. means you not need to kill him and can get more scores.
so why is it stupid in your eyes if some people play for scores as well.?

there are always people witch say dont kill and only arrest but than they have to join less-lethal server because if lethal alowed, some people use it and the situations comes up to it. you have to use it, no matter.

the best way in my eyes is:
-take your time if needed
-look the situation from much as possible positions (use windows if no risk or mirror more doors)
-mind about tactics
-mind about EQ u want use
-mind about what can heppen if.... or...
-make sure all know what they have to do.
-if needed give clear order to every player where to stay or what to use/do

thats the basics in my eyes.

all other special options or orders you can give to good players only because other maybe missunderstand it. and if u remember this points if u stack on the door. you have already more than 50% of the rom clear just by give clear orders to every player..

i guess you get more chance to clear the room sure if a player witch know the room and know how to place nades, nade the room. better chance to reach more possible hidden suspects. there are much things not all player can do that or know that. but we all learn every day new things and we give our skills to other player as well. earlyer or later we becomes all pros.

Kirjakukka

25-09-09, 01:39 PM

Tactics.... Hmm, there too many of them :D Every day you can figure out some new tactic ;)

About your bad tactics : I saw some moments when players with lethal just afraid to kill. And been killed by sus

sometimes you can use that for good... The goal in the game is to save as many people as possible (my opinion ;))... Once, a suspect was aiming me trough glass... The sus was only focused on, so the other officers could came behind and tazed/peppered him easely... In that kind of situation you don't always need to kill

That can be used if the situation allows it; there's no other officers in danger etc hard to explain :s

sometimes I change my mind and take silenced MP5.

Yes, using Silenced MP5 can be very useful for example in VIP Mode ; hiding in the shadows and kill enemies without they knowing you are...

In the other hand, it isn't so powerful weapon so you have to aim carefully ;)

I saw some moments when players was using bugs(shot @ floor & try to alarm sus then shot him with ll or taze). And civilian been killed by sus.

Is that a bug :lol:. I though the sus are checking what's happening. Then you can "lure" them to you...

You can catch many sus when using that, so in my opinion it's a good tactic

In the other hand it can be dangerous, if sus sees you and goes running and takes a hostage with him ;)

saw some moments when players was try to taze aimed sus. And been killed by sus.

Yes that is bad if you manage to taze a aiming sus, it's only about luck... So prefer go to safe place and bang him etc...

Ah and now 5 of good and bad tactics of my own :

- After you have mirrored, don't walk away from the door, stay and block it that no suspects can come trough it and suprise you

-if you don't have a mirror, scan the room from the knockside of the door... The guy, closer to the door, takes cam from the guy behind and stays still... Then the "closer guy" opens the door and the guy behind him goes past the door and looks inside, but don't enter ;)... If the "guy who openes the door" sees trouble in the cam, he can always close the door :)

- if you are using 9mm FMJ bullets, and sus is aiming/fireing at you and u have to kill him... Shoot one shot to his head... It will only incapacitade him ;)

- The first guy who enters to an un-cleared room crouches so the guy behind can cover him

- It's better than a guy with Lesslethal primany goes first in a un-cleared

- Only use Lethal guns and kills suspects when they aim --> don't use tactics... only lethal

- If sus is at 11.00 and facing from the mirror report, and an officer standing in the fireline and doesn't care to move... And when the door opens the sus turns and sees the officer and kills him immetially

- When someone throws a gas nade too near and gasses the whole team

- Players who kills suspects with c2...

- And players who throw nades trough windows, as it's a bug... Maybe not so bad tactic, but it's a bug and some players still uses it

There was my point of view on this one... I'm sure you'll disagree with somethings, but everyone has it's own opinions ;)

Joker432

25-09-09, 02:16 PM

a good matter for discussion. i guess there is no way to find same way as diffrent players have diffrent meanings.

a tactic can only be bad or stupid if not clear for all what to do or not mind before gaved orders. if this tactics are "stupid", why the most people use them then? just to say 80% use stupid tactics is not significant enough for me. i need some example to make me a impress what are "stupid" tactics for you?!
[

Actually ... I will take a word "Tactic" as basic & main word, i will take "tactic" as coop way. .
I dont take word "tactic" as many many many stiles, orders, actions etc.

If dont like a word "stupid", let it be "not clever", and there is some reasons, why:
almost all players using a same ways. That means for example: one leader - one way, 2nd leader - same way. I tired of orders something like a "gas in room. many gas". Try to clear map with a same team (who likes to use nades) . without nades. You will fail mission. Why? coz you/team cant do it without nades. End.

bugs..?? only because you use sound, dont meand you use bugs. i dont would see it as bug if u make some noise than suspect start to partol and look where the noise comes from.

yeah, in my opinion it's bug, you will not anderstend me, i also can say that mirror is a wallhack? :s
As i said suspect gettin alarmed & will :just run away,kill you, kill civ.

and if a player is not intrested to communicate whit others, he is for sure wrong on our servers.
i dont think so ...

good tactics, good scores.
[...]so why is it stupid in your eyes if some people play for scores as well.?
Coz they are think that scores are main thing ...

Tactics

25-09-09, 02:56 PM

Actually ... I will take a word "Tactic" as basic & main word, i will take "tactic" as coop way. .
I dont take word "tactic" as many many many stiles, orders, actions etc.

If dont like a word "stupid", let it be "not clever", and there is some reasons, why:
almost all players using a same ways. That means for example: one leader - one way, 2nd leader - same way. I tired of orders something like a "gas in room. many gas". Try to clear map with a same team (who likes to use nades) . without nades. You will fail mission. Why? coz you/team cant do it without nades. End.

just the player witch dont use tactical equipment is "not clever". if he use the equipment he could use to make the situation so easy as possible for the team. a player is stupid if he dont see the pros of the tactical equipment.. you cant play whit all play pure tactical as not all can play on this level. you must play whit the team u have in the moment. for me it sounds that its just boring for you to play the save way whit nades. also i guess you dont can say that you cant clear a map (whit a team) whitout nades just because they are clever and use there equipment. i talk about team like u said (use gas all rooms).

also the point is not to clear a map whitout nades. if you dont use tactical equipment you are "not clever" as it helps you to clear the map on a save way. for sure better as whitout nades.

yeah, in my opinion it's bug, you will not anderstend me, i also can say that mirror is a wallhack?
As i said suspect gettin alarmed & will :just run away,kill you, kill civ.
sure, i undertstand you but what ever you think it is no bug to make some noise whit guns to alram suspects or let them look where the sound comes from. there is not needed to talk about it anylonger.

Original Killmaster
and if a player is not intrested to communicate whit others, he is for sure wrong on our servers.
Original Posted by Joker
i dont think so ...

what ever you think!
on our servers you have to commincate whit others players ingame. you dont need to be friends but you play as team and need to comunicate whit each other. if u play whit knowen players and they know what to do you may dont need to communicate whit them but if you dont know each other, only communication can help to understand them. otherwise the team cant need you and kick will result. simple.

Coz they are think that scores are main thing ...
what ever they thing. so long as tactics dont comes to close. all is fine.

burton

25-09-09, 03:38 PM

sure, i undertstand you but what ever you think it is no bug to make some noise whit guns to alram suspects or let them look where the sound comes from. there is not needed to talk about it anylonger.

Yes there is because sometimes it gives you absolutely huge advantage over suspects. I would go so far as to say it's an exploit because there is absolutely no risk involved. Think about the vault entry in diamond heist map. Do you think it's a Pro tactic to 'lure' the suspects out of the vault by shooting at the entrance?

I find it stupid and unrealistic. And I think this is one of the things that is different between our team and other players. We play it without any of this 'luring' not because it's easier that way but because it's harder.

Sepe

25-09-09, 03:38 PM

yeah, in my opinion it's bug, you will not anderstend me, i also can say that mirror is a wallhack?
As i said suspect gettin alarmed & will :just run away,kill you, kill civ.

1: It absolutely can't be a bug... it is simply realism ... I think in the real life you
go check if you hear a strange noise, no?
2: Sus will not kill any civ, or better, civ will start scream then you know there is
at least one suspect in the room
3: Is enough to know where to use it, the right rooms, to avoid the sus run

So I think using that tactic 1-2 times a map is ok and useful

Actually ... I will take a word "Tactic" as basic & main word, i will take "tactic" as coop way. .
I dont take word "tactic" as many many many stiles, orders, actions etc.

If dont like a word "stupid", let it be "not clever", and there is some reasons, why:
almost all players using a same ways. That means for example: one leader - one way, 2nd leader - same way. I tired of orders something like a "gas in room. many gas". Try to clear map with a same team (who likes to use nades) . without nades. You will fail mission. Why? coz you/team cant do it without nades. End.

You are tired of the nades? you think they are useless? you're saying Kill only if necessary?

Some time ago I just noticed in-game, in the Taronne map, first room to the right, after a man mirrored it and warned about SUS 11 , you just made entry, simply, and kill him after yell . So I asked you, "you want to clear everything just killing?" or something like that, and you answered me "Why not". Got no screens but hardcore was in , in the case you will start to say that Im lieing

"- why you think the scores are the main thing"

No no, score isnt the main thing. As you think, the main is to complete the mission with the less number of deaths, and you fully right, but after I saw that situation I wrote up, Im starting to think you talk good about tactic just on the forum...

I have nothing more to say, for now

Tactics

25-09-09, 04:16 PM

Original Posted by burton
Yes there is because sometimes it gives you absolutely huge advantage over suspects. I would go so far as to say it's an exploit because there is absolutely no risk involved. Think about the vault entry in diamond heist map. Do you think it's a Pro tactic to 'lure' the suspects out of the vault by shooting at the entrance?

I find it stupid and unrealistic. And I think this is one of the things that is different between our team and other players. We play it without any of this 'luring' not because it's easier that way but because it's harder.

may its not realistic, i agree. but there are so much things unrealistic. it dosent matter if realistic or not but its fact that its a tactic. thats what i want to point out.

exploit or bug.. who can say if its a bug or not??

myself dont think its a bug. sus hear your tazer so they go where the shoot comes from. naruraly action of suspect. may his curiosity or just to check the part to be sure there is no officer. otherwise it makes no sence for me that suspect hear your shoots..

it depends on the situation if it makes sence or not. in your situation it depends of the guns the team have. if some less lethal between the team, there is nothing to say against it in my eyes.

and if this tactic is Pro or not deppends from the person who shell judge about it. other people other view. im not jury i just tell my meaning and this is a tactic in the game and get used by some people. there is no problem whit it.

i tryed much ways and may its a bit to easy whit it, you right. but diffrent people diffrent meaning.

Joker432

25-09-09, 04:32 PM

1: It absolutely can't be a bug... it is simply realism ... I think in the real life you
go check if you hear a strange noise, no?

"Wrong" you dont mind. it's not a real life.

2: Sus will not kill any civ, or better, civ will start scream then you know there is
at least one suspect in the room
"Wrong"

You are tired of the nades? you think they are useless? you're saying Kill only if necessary?

i didn't say that ... well, i tired of "not clever" orders ... you "wrong"

Some time ago I just noticed in-game, in the Taronne map, first room to the right, after a man mirrored it and warned about SUS 11 , you just made entry, simply, and kill him after yell . So I asked you, "you want to clear everything just killing?" or something like that, and you answered me "Why not". Got no screens but hardcore was in , in the case you will start to say that Im lieing

I didnt start lieng, you didnt start lieing ... i remember it ... there was no leader, all was rdy to enter ... so? you "wrong".

No no, score isnt the main thing. As you think, the main is to complete the mission with the less number of deaths, and you fully right, but after I saw that situation I wrote up, Im starting to think you talk good about tactic just on the forum...

You "wrong"...

burton

25-09-09, 04:38 PM

may its not realistic, i agree. but there are so much things unrealistic. it dosent matter if realistic or not but its fact that its a tactic. thats what i want to point out.

exploit or bug.. who can say if its a bug or not??

myself dont think its a bug. sus hear your tazer so they go where the shoot comes from. naruraly action of suspect. may his curiosity or just to check the part to be sure there is no officer. otherwise it makes no sence for me that suspect hear your shoots..

it depends on the situation if it makes sence or not. in your situation it depends of the guns the team have. if some less lethal between the team, there is nothing to say against it in my eyes.

and if this tactic is Pro or not deppends from the person who shell judge about it. other people other view. im not jury i just tell my meaning and this is a tactic in the game and get used by some people. there is no problem whit it.

i tryed much ways and may its a bit to easy whit it, you right. but diffrent people diffrent meaning.

Well, it just kills the immersion of realistic coop. "Hey, let's shoot walls to lure them here!". I find these types of actions unacceptable. And what do people learn by doing this? What do people learn by using these luring tactics? Nothing. If people would use some proper CQB tactics maybe they could actually learn something like how to navigate difficult layouts effectively.

If the server is labeled "Pro" then people should have some expectation of the level play on the server right? Quite frankly shooting walls doesn't exactly match my expectations of Pro play.

Tactics

25-09-09, 05:27 PM

@ burton

the diffrent is that one is real and other is just a game. i know the game based on real swat coop but in real its much diffrent than a game im sure i dont tell you new things. some people want to play real as much as possible, other just want to play the game. and thats the point. there is nearly no way to meet in middle if u have diffrent player whit diff. meaning about it. so we cant make it fine for all..

If the server is labeled "Pro" then people should have some expectation of the level play on the server right?
would be good yes.
but all witch hold up the rules and can behave, are welcome on our servers. the most of them are also ready to learn new things. also if they are no pro players. all have same rights as so long as they can they behave.

@ Joker

come on, that becomes embarrassing... you start this thread to say "wrong" what ever we write? to say "wrong" to nearly everything is simply childish! why you start this thread then?

Sepe

25-09-09, 05:28 PM

"Wrong" you dont mind. it's not a real life.

Eh? Are you saying that if a suspect in a game hear a strange noise and he go check it, is a BUG? Man please explain you better, don't just write Wrong wrong wrong

"Wrong"

Sorry but I don't wrong here, or at least show me a video wich where a sus kill a civ without see you but just hearing a noise of tazer

I didnt start lieng, you didnt start lieing ... i remember it ... there was no leader, all was rdy to enter ... so? you "wrong".

"So?" Im reading that you like the tactic

Quote:
No no, score isnt the main thing. As you think, the main is to complete the mission with the less number of deaths, and you fully right, but after I saw that situation I wrote up, Im starting to think you talk good about tactic just on the forum...
You "wrong"...

And I think entry without any kind of EQ used exept the primary gun ( That was LETHAL ) when knowed a suspect is in , is not a tactic ...

Joker432

25-09-09, 05:39 PM

Actually, burton already told about that "Bug".

Well, as you can see i said word "wrong" not @ all. I like some your's ideas. Dont get me "wrong".

Uhmm ... and why you think that primary weap is not a tactical eq?

Sepe

25-09-09, 05:44 PM

And I think entry without any kind of EQ used except the primary gun ( That was LETHAL ) when knowed a suspect is in , is not a tactic ...

As you can see I said EXCEPT the primary lethal gun,and by the way the point is that make a entry just with it when you know a suspect is in, isnt absolutely a tactic

Tactics

25-09-09, 05:58 PM

so was this thread just started because this "bug"?

i thoght the thread was started to talk about tactics. may the headline is not correct then.

the primary and seconady gun are a part of your tactical eq at all. so your gun is also eq. where was your tactics you talking about here in forum as you opened the door ingame where a suspect was visible behind it and just opened it killed the sus and closed the door. where is the tactics in this action?? you risk your life and also one suspect down. could be easy done by a nade i think.

burton

25-09-09, 06:00 PM

the diffrent is that one is real and other is just a game. i know the game based on real swat coop but in real its much diffrent than a game im sure i dont tell you new things. some people want to play real as much as possible, other just want to play the game. and thats the point. there is nearly no way to meet in middle if u have diffrent player whit diff. meaning about it. so we cant make it fine for all..

"It's just a game" can be used in an argument to back anything. So where do you draw the line what's using exploit and what's not? What's Pro tactic and what's not? Is it OK to use any tactic as long as the enemies are computer controlled?

For example these screen shots:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/714/shot01127.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/i/shot01127.jpg/)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/384/shot01128.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/i/shot01128.jpg/)

Direct quotes:

CA|Mason: plazma, you do know that throwing nades through window can be watched as exploit, which is forbidden on this server

SOG|plaZma(RC): as we do it on academy, I don't get it as bug

All images (http://img41.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=shot01134.jpg)

So Killmaster do you think this sets good example how to play this game? As it was apparently taught at SOG academy I think the Academy mentors should give some insight if this is widely used tactic?

Tactics

25-09-09, 06:06 PM

he missunderstood that.
he directly informed me after this action.
i showed it once in academy to give example for bugs. all know thats not alowed and was not used after this matter again.

Kirjakukka

25-09-09, 06:11 PM

Hmmm... Some things are "pretty" un-clear for me : Originally Posted by Plazma
1: It absolutely can't be a bug... it is simply realism ... I think in the real life you
go check if you hear a strange noise, no?

"Wrong" you dont mind. it's not a real life. What? How is it wrong? The game isn't real life, well it isn't... It's a game where the game makers have put "features" of real life. You think that the game makers just put a feature for fun in the game, which makes the suspect(s) react to noise? No, when for example I hear a voice in my house, do i just stand there and do nothing, or do i go and check it out? Well, yes... Humans are natrually curious. So that's why they put a feature like it there... In real-life you would check what is happening(that's no doubt)... And when the suspects know that there's officers in the building, you may notice that they might not go check it out... That can be (or is) a reason why the game makers have made a feature like it...[/U]

2: Sus will not kill any civ, or better, civ will start scream then you know there is at least one suspect in the room

"Wrong"

Mmmmm... That's not wrong. As you said earlier: "as i said suspect gettin alarmed & will :just run away,kill you, kill civ. " Suspect won't directly kill civilian... Only if one is close enough and neither you if you keep your distance, but sometimes they still try to kill you after you yell to them. But this put me thinking "civ will start scream then you know there is
at least one suspect in the room " "Wrong"

Plazma is absolitely right, civilains will start screaming when suspect is in the same room and you can effectly use it for you own good

You are tired of the nades? you think they are useless? you're saying Kill only if necessary?
i didn't say that ... well, i tired of "not clever" orders ... you "wrong"

Sorry that doesn't make any sense

Some time ago I just noticed in-game, in the Taronne map, first room to the right, after a man mirrored it and warned about SUS 11 , you just made entry, simply, and kill him after yell . So I asked you, "you want to clear everything just killing?" or something like that, and you answered me "Why not". Got no screens but hardcore was in , in the case you will start to say that Im lieing

I didnt start lieng, you didnt start lieing ... i remember it ... there was no leader, all was rdy to enter ... so? you "wrong".

Where's your tactics, man? That's like a suicide, confront armed suspect... You can easely get penalties or officer down with that. And as you knew there was good possibility that the sus wouldn't give up, why you just wouldn't bang or something... That's one bad tactic. So you think it's a good tactic? wasn't this thread in the first place about tactics?

No no, score isnt the main thing. As you think, the main is to complete the mission with the less number of deaths, and you fully right, but after I saw that situation I wrote up, Im starting to think you talk good about tactic just on the forum...

You "wrong"...

What is wrong with that? Isn't the main object to avoid necessary casulties, even suspect talking about suspects? Confused now, what is a tactic where you don't avoid necessary casulties?

burton

25-09-09, 06:21 PM

I think you're missing the point Joker is trying to make. The fact that suspects react to noise isn't the problem. The problem is that how you use that to your advantage to make a difficult place (the vault) an easy one (by luring the suspects out). You're not using the standard CQB tactics you should be using.

Like I said, by playing on Pro you should have some expectations on the level of play there.

Tactics

25-09-09, 06:29 PM

burton

25-09-09, 06:50 PM

but how can you make it clear to all player witch want to play on our servers? thats simply not possible. there is no reason to kick anyone for this. the most want to make it so easy as possible for themself.

You could start by setting an example how the vault should be cleared. If one of the SOGs is the leader of the team, they should use the proper CQB tactic instead of the luring tactic. This way you give the team (and possible new players) idea how the game is played.

Tactics

25-09-09, 07:07 PM

HellSpawN

25-09-09, 07:58 PM

I just say this.. "As a member of SWAT your prime directive is to save lives. Not only those of the victim but those of the suspects as well. ..."

burton

25-09-09, 08:12 PM

thats what we do in academy.
we dont show how to alarm suspects and let them come to you, we show how make movment, use tactical eq, show diffrent tactics.

we also show things like alarm suspects and we try diffrend things and ways but thats only by the way.

academy is free for all. nobuddy is forced to do it. untill they want make application to clan but under age, thats onlyest way then.

Good but these things must also be done in real games, not just academy games. I've seen SOGs using the luring tactic many times.

I just say this.. "As a member of SWAT your prime directive is to save lives. Not only those of the victim but those of the suspects as well. ..."

This is a can of worms you're opening. Because you just quoted something I'll counter it just by saying that one shouldn't put the team unnecessary danger either by trying to save a suspect. Surprisingly this is what most people flagging for less-lethal tactics do with all their stupid tazer ramboing.

HellSpawN

25-09-09, 08:53 PM

Of course.. but my point is that we have lots of ways of saving suspects life without the old thing "he aimed at me.. i have to kill him", and be fully tactical with lethal weapons.. like double entrys with c2, well throwed granades, "scanning" rooms with 2 officers etc... and first of all good positioning and movement of the whole team.. of course if a player is opening doors, alarming the suspects with friendlys in line of fire we have to put the suspect down.. but it would not be necessary when we know where the Threats are and which players are we playing with on a server..

im just saying that most of the times we kill suspects is because other players make them get in the way of the team unnecessarily in that moment..

Tactics

25-09-09, 10:03 PM

Original burton
Good but these things must also be done in real games, not just academy games. I've seen SOGs using the luring tactic many times.

we teach all needed basics stuff in the academy but at least everyone choose there owen way of leading and tactics. we cant and dont want to force anyone to do this or dont do this..

burton

26-09-09, 07:52 AM

Of course.. but my point is that we have lots of ways of saving suspects life without the old thing "he aimed at me.. i have to kill him", and be fully tactical with lethal weapons.. like double entrys with c2, well throwed granades, "scanning" rooms with 2 officers etc... and first of all good positioning and movement of the whole team.. of course if a player is opening doors, alarming the suspects with friendlys in line of fire we have to put the suspect down.. but it would not be necessary when we know where the Threats are and which players are we playing with on a server..

You don't need to talk to me about tactics. :) I've seen it all.

What I'm saying is that luring shouldn't be on one's list of tactics to use.

Joker432

26-09-09, 07:54 AM

we teach all needed basics stuff in the academy but at least everyone choose there owen way of leading and tactics. we cant and dont want to force anyone to do this or dont do this..

Why not? as you teach in academy all needed basics stuff & as you force to listen your orders, you also can teach that luring tactic, "bugs" tactic isnt a good way to play. "we should do it only in academy. not in public". Its a basic stuff. :)

Tactics

26-09-09, 10:33 AM

Original Posted by Joker
Why not? as you teach in academy all needed basics stuff & as you force to listen your orders, you also can teach that luring tactic, "bugs" tactic isnt a good way to play. "we should do it only in academy. not in public". Its a basic stuff.
thats your personaly meaning and i respect that.

Why not?
because we dont want to do so. we are not there parents and also we dont have time to watch every cadet all time or ex cadets and look witch tactic they use. we showed them the basic stuff and also explaned whats good or what not tactical at all is but everyone decide for them self witch way he want to go or witch tactics he want use. if they join our academy, they have to agree whit the rules and they must listen to the Comander and Instructor. if they dont listen, good bye for them. but thats not possible on public servers. we show all stuff they should know to have the basics and the rest is up to them. we dont want to make them to pro players, thats not our goal. they know tactics, eq and ways and have to choose there owen way.

burton

26-09-09, 02:20 PM

thats your personaly meaning and i respect that.
because we dont want to do so. we are not there parents and also we dont have time to watch every cadet all time or ex cadets and look witch tactic they use. we showed them the basic stuff and also explaned whats good or what not tactical at all is but everyone decide for them self witch way he want to go or witch tactics he want use. if they join our academy, they have to agree whit the rules and they must listen to the Comander and Instructor. if they dont listen, good bye for them. but thats not possible on public servers. we show all stuff they should know to have the basics and the rest is up to them. we dont want to make them to pro players, thats not our goal. they know tactics, eq and ways and have to choose there owen way.

So you're saying when SOGs play together in a team they agree on the strategy side but all have their own view what they should do tactically?

Some think that first person going in should crouch, some don't. Some think that LL shotgun guy should go in first, some don't?

Isn't that like having many cooks in the kitchen?

What's the point of academy if new players are taught to play how they see it's the right way to play while others disagree with him?

What I'm getting here is that I've read about tactical movement on this very forum. We use those tactics! You have them documented right here but I haven't seen anyone using them except us. To me it's like saying it *would* be nice to play at this level but why bother.

Pepper

26-09-09, 05:17 PM

many Words, many Ways, different Styles ....

i must say something as well after reading all these Posts. Some of the Comments are annoying, as it always go in the same Directions, no for this and no for that, and "I" knew it better and so on ...

First to say, Fenix have started to base the Academy on that Point, to get People together in good Teamplay, the feeling to stay in a Team, and to act as a Team.

Therefore the Idea was the Academy, to have a Place to learn that Way of playing, to try out different things, to get known, how the Sus and Civ will act after different Points what happens.

The Motto from the Academy: "Cover & arrest, secure & alive, that`ll be the best!"

I have seen it so often from players on Pro, they take the lethal Weapon and wait until they can shoot and can say, "hey, no Penaulty`s, he was aiming!" . Thats right on one Side, wrong on the other Side, as the Swat4 Game is based on reaching Points and a Rank after the Round, so then you will loose Points for sure, and if you play in Tournament like the last one, your Team can loose the Places from 1 to 3 by loosing one Point ;)

And Teamplay is more, then only stay on the same Place like the Team, with Lehal Weapon in Hand and wait until you can shoot. Why dont take the Time, to make an Tactic, whatever the Tactic is, to get the Suspect arrested and the Civillians secure, therefore is tactical Gaming, by using only one is booring, on that or this Way. To use different Ways to get the Sus catched is the interesting Point, and therefore, you can include the whole Team.

Only shouting against the Academy, pff ... we know what we are doing there, and you can believe me, i know, that the Cadets and Graduate over there ... we have had so many nice, interesting, learnfull and surpriced Situations, that we absolute sure, all the Time in the Training, makes it, and bring it up to us, that we have a great Teamplay, by using different Ways, to finish, that all are staying alive.

Some of this Spirit has complied to the public Game Play, of course, we have noticed that a long Time.

If you, Burton or Joker can do hat all better, then its fine for us, go on and organize Training, make your Tactics then, it will be fine for us, be sure, but i know, over 80 Trainings Session, over nearly one Year, all the Arrangements from the Trainers in there different Ways to teach, it is a great Time to make that kind of Training, and we learn all together, everybody from his own Position.

And be sure, as i have been to special Training into Weapon & Mine Diver, all these special Forces studdy there Ways to act in lots of Training, to be sure, to act as Team in safe Way and to know, that everybody knows, what the others are doing, thats reality in all Special Forces.

The priority of Swat Force is, to secure the Life, the Life from there Team, the Civ and last not least from the Sus.

Teamplay, is working together, Hand in Hand, to know what the other will do, thats a great feeling, i agree with Kill, we are not there to say, this is the onlyest Way to go, we teach, to see, which Way you can go in that Moment, as it depend what is happen there, to manage a Group, to come together, that everybody is important Team Member, that they feel, we all have done the Job and get the 100%, thats real Leadership.

In BF you get your Scores for the Kills, in Swat for you get you Points if you dont make a Mistake, thats big Differents.

rgds, Pepper

Tactics

26-09-09, 05:51 PM

Original burton
So you're saying when SOGs play together in a team they agree on the strategy side but all have their own view what they should do tactically?
more or less you can say so, yes.
you can not make all SOGs in one bag whit all academy cadets and also i dont want to speek for all SOGs cause all have there meaning. much members have there owen tactics and the most of them had not even one lesson in academy as its not a must for them. so they cant know witch stuff get showen in academy and cant use them cause they dont know. so they use other tactics than a academy cadet or graduate should use. how i said once, we can show diffrent ways to cadets but at least they choos the one they want use because not all player want play as real as possible, some just want to play the game. and make it simple as possible for them.

Some think that first person going in should crouch, some don't. Some think that LL shotgun guy should go in first, some don't?
all i can say to this is all have pros and cons and it also depend of the room, part or where ever u want to enter or move.
What's the point of academy if new players are taught to play how they see it's the right way to play while others disagree with him?

What I'm getting here is that I've read about tactical movement on this very forum. We use those tactics! You have them documented right here but I haven't seen anyone using them except us. To me it's like saying it *would* be nice to play at this level but why bother.

in academy we dont show how to be a real swat officer. because we have not the skills like them, we can just show how to handle the game. we show ways to handle diffrent situations or use equipment.

What is the |SOG|Academy and what are its goals?

* On the one hand we want to teach you the basic and some advanced skills used in SWAT 4.
* On the other hand we want to provide you with the know-how to play (and maybe lead) by example. in every server you are playing.
* After |SOG|Academy you should be able to mitigate (or at least solve it better), every situation by using the tactics and tactical skills you learned.

thats what we do in academy. we show how to play the game. if they dont remember or dont want to use the tactics, its up to them.

Joker432

26-09-09, 05:56 PM

I have seen it so often from players on Pro, they take the lethal Weapon and wait until they can shoot and can say, [COLOR="LemonChiffon"]"hey, no Penaulty`s, he was aiming!" . Thats right on one Side, wrong on the other Side, as the Swat4 Game is based on reaching Points and a Rank after the Round, so then you will loose Points for sure, and if you play in Tournament like the last one, your Team can loose the Places from 1 to 3 by loosing one Point ;)

I think you missed a point of coop. You can reach score in VIP mode, bs model too, as team, as teammate - its like a sport. But coop isnt a sport at all. I can, with my team, finish the map with score 60%, but with great tactical action and i will be happy. Team will be happy too. I dont care about scores.

"lets try to taze him, i WILL taze him"
"don't kill pls we will LOOSE a SCORES"
"if you reach a 100% you are pro"

Thats way of academy in simple words, isnt it?

Thats kind of way, words, thats kind of "mind" i dont anderstend and will never anderstend.

And get me right, i dont say that only killing is a good way.

If you, Burton or Joker can do hat all better, then its fine for us, go on and organize Training, make your Tactics then

... we or I already made our tactic and some ppl learn our tactic, while we playing in public.

In BF you get your Scores for the Kills, in Swat for you get you Points if you dont make a Mistake

umh.. mistake? mistakes can be different ... score in swat 4 coop are mistake too.

burton

26-09-09, 06:41 PM

OK. Where should I start. I'll start with the aspect of score as it seems to
be important to people. A long read ahead.

The score you see at the end is just one result how you played. Just one. When
I started playing SWAT4 high score was of course the most important thing.
Achieving 100 in every mission was goal of ours early on.

This all changed when we started to play on public. We started to see
absolutely crap games without any tactic what so ever and boom, 100 points.
It was like as long as we get 100 points it doesn't matter how badly we play.
100 points, that's most important thing. We still see it today and that's
sad. People saying "gg" for pure running around as long as the score was 100.
It's a joke.

So honestly I can't and won't take anyone seriously if they're going to spread
this 100 score mantra.

When I say this, people get me wrong. They got me wrong in the past, they will
get me wrong in the future. People will think that by saying this I will
somehow bless penalties or bad score. Of course not! I'm saying that a single
score is bad indicator for any team's level of play.

We chose lethal weapons for a reason. A very simple reason. And to understand
that reason you have to understand where we come from. We have been around you
know. We have been around long before SWAT4 even existed. When we started to
play SWAT4 in summer of 2005 we too used non-lethal weapons to achieve good
score. But that got boring. It was way too easy. I'll repeat. Too easy. Throw
a gas in and that's it. What's the challenge? There is absolutely none. And
with LL weapons you can just shoot around, where's the challenge in that?

We chose lethal weapons because it's hard. We chose flash bangs because it's
hard. We chose this equipment layout so we could learn something. That we
could get that "rush". And we have learned. It's much harder to use lethal
weapons because you can't just shoot people. You have to have a reason. It's
much harder to use flash bangs because its effect is blocked by stuff lying
around etc. There is always that surprise and nothing is certain.

And then we get to the training and tactic part. It's good to look back in
this case too. We didn't invent the tactics we use. We were taught by a
number of very special people who no longer play this game. The tactics we use
are based on real life. They are used by real police officer when in close
quarters. It's funny to watch some documentaries about SWAT and then notice,
hey that's exactly what we do on that situation.

The people who trained us weren't nice people. They were there to train us, to
make sure that we function effectively in every situation. They weren't there
to be nice to us. It was basically like an army. If you did mistakes in the
training you would get shouted at for five minutes. And just like you learn in
the army, you learned there. I haven't personally seen anything like that in
any game. The fact that these people were able to pick up this game and put so
hard realism in it is remarkable.

There are very few people who can play at that level. Very few people who can
take that verbal abuse and then do the same tactic again. And again. And
again. And again until every movement is hard coded in your spine and you
will successfully execute the mission.

This is where we come from. It was just like training in real life. Like I
said, not many people are able to train at this level. And we weren't either.
After playing some months with them our roads separated. But we didn't forget
the things they taught us. We continued on that path because we knew it was
the right one.

And now, after all this, to see someone using luring tactic to cover final
score makes me so mad.

We have trained 5 or 6 people. Maybe more. We have several strategies for
every map. Some of them are easier, some of them are harder. Depends on the
mood. Most of them we have developed over the course of the years. But I don't
want to take credit because if you just look at the map layouts you see what
strategy works and what does not.

Our training process is very different too. Our tactics can be taught in one
night. Why? Because the tactics are very simple. And that's why they work. You
take the tactics and then adapt them to the current situation. And we aren't
talking about rocket science here or state secrets. Most of them are
documented on this forum ages ago but like I said, I haven't honestly seen
anyone using them except us.

And let's make one thing clear here. This isn't some recruitment poster for
our team. We aren't looking for members, we never have. We are happy about the
way things are now. If someone asks to join us, we just point them to here.
This is a good clan.

It's different priorities. We play it for realism and how it's done in real
life. We don't play it for the score.

Tactics

26-09-09, 07:21 PM

@ Joker
Original Joker
"lets try to taze him, i WILL taze him"
"don't kill pls we will LOOSE a SCORES"
"if you reach a 100% you are pro"

Thats way of academy in simple words, isnt it?

no way. if you thinks so, you missed the goal of academy.

umh.. mistake? mistakes can be different ... score in swat 4 coop are mistake too.
how me and burton said already, you can see how good you and your team was. in my eyes a good 70 or 80 is much more than a easy 100. i totaly agree.

@ burton
may the point is that you play or know swat so long that (how you said) its to easy for you whit less-lethal or old/knowen/often used ect. tactics to play. you looking for the challenge like some others. but to less people think so, most player dont like it or dont want to play this way. and thats whats not possible to make fine for all.

there is no problem to show other play how you would do it may they get intrested in this way then. dont means you have to teach people on servers (dont missunderstand me) but that would be a possiblibity to get more players for the real tactical gaming like you take about.

Hidroncs

26-09-09, 07:47 PM

Nice discuss, but i'm afraid points will not get closer on this anyhow & any long will try it. 1st of all this was already discussed - like you wrote Joker - in Sete's thread. But here is some more, what i think about it:

I wil take 80% of players as 1 player, coz that 80% using a same ,sorry, but stupid tactic ( in my opinion!). Rest 20% of players using another tactic.

- maybe count about it a little bit... CA's + you + (Haruno in any name - sometimes he can play very nice "stupid" tactic also) who are not playing "stupid" tactic is 6 ppl. If there is only 24 more players, then you got right, and it's 80-20.... As my driving teacher said: "If you drive on the highway, and all other driver come opposite to you, then mb you go to wrong way."

Example of stupid tactic:

I saw some moments when players with lethal just afraid to kill. And been killed by sus.

I saw some moments when players was try to taze aimed sus. And been killed by sus.

I saw some moments when players was using bugs(shot @ floor & try to alarm sus then shot him with ll or taze). And civilian been killed by sus.

- 1st, and 2nd are not tactics... Those are mistakes, what can easily done by new, or even experienced players. Tactic means a plan for me, a plan to find a way to clear the situation, to arrest suspects, and save civs. A plan not a movement, what you really can do very well, i respect that. But never saw any plan in your gaming style guys. The plan is always the same: get bangs & silenced gun. Stand on knob side, open, scan the room, if no need to shoot immediately, then yell on susp, and wait whats happen. Only 3 things can:
1. susp starts shooting = you kill him;
2. susp starts running = if your direction -> you kill him (or if you can hide in a cover not in his running way, taze him while run) if he run away = you let him run (next time he will run to your direction ;) )
3. susp will hide = you drop a bang on him, after he said he hide, and you can make it safe, or yell on him again.

But in my opinion this is not tactic, just tactical moving. To do this, no need a team, or a teamate. This is simply very good single player game, but not coop. Coop is for teamwork, listening orders, try to make it as your best and try to be useful part of team (even when you "just" cover 1-2 doors or stairs for long minutes).

You and Burton also said you not use game bugs to play. What is that, when on red library map you stand outside on balcony, and yell from there to the last room's end standing susp, just because you know, if he will run, you can taze his back from the balcony, coz he always in the corridor direction.... etc... Not else then make noise, just we know some will come to see whats happen.

-- in my opinion players are forget or don't mind that dead suspect better than dead officers.

- in my opinion not better. As we talk about tactic, and if we take it seriously... That can not be a tactic, that SWAT go in, and kill if need. So if it was not in the plan, then if you have to kill, then your plan & your mission failed.

If dont like a word "stupid", let it be "not clever", and there is some reasons, why:

almost all players using a same ways. That means for example: one leader - one way, 2nd leader - same way. I tired of orders something like a "gas in room. many gas". Try to clear map with a same team (who likes to use nades) . without nades. You will fail mission. Why? coz you/team cant do it without nades. End.

- I dont like that word too, but nvm. Very injurious in hungarian meaning.
- always the same way? ---> i never saw you made big changes. We do it in the same way, because of tactic (no uncleared rooms behind you, etc). But here is a big differece in experienced players, and great leaders... If the usual way is not work (a rambo crashed an important door or something like that), a great leader can re-think about teams tactic, and can choose another way, what can be just as safe as the normal one.
- tell me pls why need to make it without nades ?? :s SWAT has here & in real life too equipments to do their job, and save lifes.

And i can go more, but i'm "stupid" and its hard to think more in english :p (joke only sry if bad)

At least i think you all with that playing style is talking here a lot about points, but you lost the most important point of SWAT4 :

- this is only a game play. This is only for fun. This is only to play together with other ppl all over the world, and HAVE FUN. Make jokes and funny tricks, what you try out 1st, our what you saw from somebody else. But single player "scan & kill" is not fun, even if you do it professional like. It's annoying. But its only my opinion.....

Joker432

26-09-09, 08:00 PM

Well, after ~4 month in academy (kicked) i still dont andersted the academy's way. Happends.

Actually, thats sad that i started play swat in online only a ~ 1 year ago, i didnt meet with some interetsing ppl. But ~3 month was enogh for chosing way.
I started to play with only LL. Only Gas eq. Only gas. That was cool for me.
gas in room was enogh. i was a dam rambo with bad english. I say thx @ killmaster. You changed my mind.

Then i meet with another ppl. Example: haruno. He showed me a real tactic. We've clear the last map without any nades. thx to him. He changed my mind.

if really i was hate CA|. Really. I was thinked that they are noobs. Thx @ time. Time changed my mind.

I starded use a lethal. penaltys. Dam penaltys. Thx @ training. Its cnahged my skills.

I started to use bangs. That was & still cool.
One good bang is much better then this crappy gas.
Unknow players started to think that i'm a noob.
happends.

What about academy? what about those player who playing in PRO server?dosnt matter if you scan, mirroring & see a sus you in 80% use a gas or c2 (or that lame c2 trick) or rushing with sprays. Try to find another way. Just try it.

My opinon.

Pepper

26-09-09, 08:02 PM

@ Burton

we can have all different Meanings, Ways and so on. One point to play with you inGame for example is, you always stay in the back, you are not involved to real Teamplay, as you only wait on your Point, that you are allowed to shoot the Sus down and it seems that you are not willing to play real Teamplay with some People.

I have seen often, if i play undercover on Pro, you can do some kind of Teamplay, if i play with my Name, then you only stay in the back with you 9mm silent, then you hold distance between you and the Group, uhmm, seems a bit seldom for me.

Then in one Round i choose the Less Lethal Weapon on Pro Server for all, you take it, but as secondary the lethal Handgun, then on the whole Map, you walk around with your lethal in Hand, but i though to set you more on Point to the Group, that less lethal can enter first, and the team will have a good chance to catch them alive, but if you only have lethal in Hand, then you must use this.

So for my Part, nothing more to say here, as it seems, it goes only one Way, why are you and Joker are not able to accept other Ways and Meanings then?! - that is intolerant, be sure, thats a thing that we are not, because Kill me and others here said often, other Tactics are possible, other Ways are possible to handle, Lethal or less lethal, the Goal, as its an concept from the game to get Points after the Round, the Win in all official Tournaments are the Points, that it, and believe me, i have played with many unknown Public Players, finding together in Teamplay, and we all enjoyed the Results, by having Fun, good Team Action, saved Civ, and at least, all have been proud to winn 100% after a good hard Map, we have used mixed Setups then, everybody is looking after the other, and try there best to make it without loosing Points.

If the Points doesn't suit you, as i said before, getting Medal`s and Points for Kills then better play BF2, you are free to choose Game and Server all Time, we on SOG prefer tactical Gaming in CooP.

Discussions are really nice and should be held for sure, but the real Way to talk is, to see my Point, to see others Points, and then to be able to accept other meanings, to respect other Ways and Players, as there are so many good ones out on the Server.

May you have noticed, that we dont "overtake" our Servers, we invite other public Players as well to take Leadership, to try it out, even if they are playing Swat4 a couples of Hours. Thats our Way here in this Community, to get in Respect with other Players, dont get arrogant on the Servers, be fair as Admi9n to all of them, and last not least, to have Fun inGame, with clear Rules and Targets, to enjoy Friendship and sample Experience together.

We from SOG, our Friends and VIP`S, also the Academy Members meet us often on Teamspeak, and be sure, thats a more deep Step to get somebody known, then you Friends getting a Face, a Personality.

You are free to choose the Server all time, so you all will be welcome on SOG Server, to enjoy with us tactical Teamplay :D

@ Joker

What about academy? what about those player who playing in PRO server?dosnt matter if you scan, mirroring & see a sus you in 80% use a gas or c2 (or that lame c2 trick) or rushing with sprays. Try to find another way. Just try it.

I have direct understand, that you dont like it and you dont understand it, we have done more than you have said here, you havent get all what we have done, so you cant say anything to it. I will not go on here, as you all Time remind you get kicked, unlucky for you, maybe, but we have our Way and stay on it, using different Tattics, Lethal and non Lethal, mixed Setup in Temas, and different Ways to go. btw, if you understand Pepperspray as rushing, then i see you havent understand it, other Cadets can tell you different Ways to see it, i am sure.

Joker432

26-09-09, 11:23 PM

1st at all, i have to agree with you in some moments.
And, actually, disagree.

So 50/50.

I dont like these spray rushing: you just running and actually at this moment your brain is off. You just running. Hmm, not clever, at least use it in very small room.

As i saw your actions and cadests actions in public, i can say what i said. :)

are you use ur different ways only in academy, not in public?

btw i just told that i got a kicked from a academy only once. PLs Dont be a wrong in it.
I'm happy that i got kicked. Really. I don't want to back.

Well, this thread is not about academy. Offtopic :s

Tactics

27-09-09, 12:57 PM

Original Joker
I dont like these spray rushing: you just running and actually at this moment your brain is off. You just running. Hmm, not clever, at least use it in very small room.
i agree that its only useful in smal rooms or areas.

As i saw your actions and cadests actions in public, i can say what i said.
i could also repeat what i said but its not needed as its wrote more times on the posts before.

Original Joker
are you use ur different ways only in academy, not in public?

i can only speek for myself here.
most time i use often used wasy and tactics. but if the team is well and i see they have skills, i try other ways and tactics whit them so far as possible.

Original Joker
btw i just told that i got a kicked from a academy only once. PLs Dont be a wrong in it.
I'm happy that i got kicked. Really. I don't want to back.

also if you where intrested to rejoin, there where no way for you back. at least not whit this behave you showed in last days/weeks on the servers.

but how you said this thread is not about academy.

in last days i mind about your posts and i know its no bad idea to bring more people to the "real" tactical gaming. i will try to play more this way to get other people for this kind of gaming. but i dont understand why not directly start whit post in this way. only burton wrote more or less in this right since his first post. we are only people and we are glade to hear what other think about us and our gaming also if its not only possitiv.

once again its clear to see diffrent meanings.
but myself find your hints and request for real tactical gaming good and i will try to play it more on our servers if people whit needed skill there. it can only become better.

burton

28-09-09, 10:04 AM

@ Burton
we can have all different Meanings, Ways and so on. One point to play with you inGame for example is, you always stay in the back, you are not involved to real Teamplay, as you only wait on your Point, that you are allowed to shoot the Sus down and it seems that you are not willing to play real Teamplay with some People.

I have seen often, if i play undercover on Pro, you can do some kind of Teamplay, if i play with my Name, then you only stay in the back with you 9mm silent, then you hold distance between you and the Group, uhmm, seems a bit seldom for me.

Most people are eager to go in first, why should we stop them? This eagerness comes with a price tag however and that price tag is that you aren't always aware the dangers of your surroundings. Perhaps one of the most dangerous situations is that you think you're safe but in reality you're not.

I don't have any problems going in first. Just by default on public games we tend to stay back because of the dangerous situations others create without knowing it.

I mean, for some people using such basic things as wedges seem to the hardest thing in the world. Someone needs to put these wedges to even have tiny bit of sanity in the strategy. Usually it's us.

Then in one Round i choose the Less Lethal Weapon on Pro Server for all, you take it, but as secondary the lethal Handgun, then on the whole Map, you walk around with your lethal in Hand, but i though to set you more on Point to the Group, that less lethal can enter first, and the team will have a good chance to catch them alive, but if you only have lethal in Hand, then you must use this.

I don't use weapon that doesn't work. I have already said in this very thread that LL shotgun doesn't work in every situation. It may work in *most* situations but then there are these situations where it doesn't work no matter how many rounds you shoot. A weapon that doesn't work is worthless. I use pistol because a) I can protect myself with it and b) I can protect my team mates with it. If the situation is safe, then I don't have problem using LL shotgun. But the situation is hardly ever safe.

So for my Part, nothing more to say here, as it seems, it goes only one Way, why are you and Joker are not able to accept other Ways and Meanings then?! - that is intolerant, be sure, thats a thing that we are not, because Kill me and others here said often, other Tactics are possible, other Ways are possible to handle, Lethal or less lethal, the Goal, as its an concept from the game to get Points after the Round, the Win in all official Tournaments are the Points, that it, and believe me, i have played with many unknown Public Players, finding together in Teamplay, and we all enjoyed the Results, by having Fun, good Team Action, saved Civ, and at least, all have been proud to winn 100% after a good hard Map, we have used mixed Setups then, everybody is looking after the other, and try there best to make it without loosing Points.

Other ways, such as luring tactics? I can honestly say that I will never ever approve any luring tactic. Ever.

If the Points doesn't suit you, as i said before, getting Medal`s and Points for Kills then better play BF2, you are free to choose Game and Server all Time, we on SOG prefer tactical Gaming in CooP.

I have already said I think about the scores in SWAT4 in this thread.

We from SOG, our Friends and VIP`S, also the Academy Members meet us often on Teamspeak, and be sure, thats a more deep Step to get somebody known, then you Friends getting a Face, a Personality.

We use Teamspeak in every game we play. Every single one of them. It doesn't matter if it's a practice or public play. We're on team speak and we're using it.

Joker432

28-09-09, 10:44 AM

at least not whit this behave you showed in last days/weeks on the servers.

Just to be clear:

Behave? hmm? saying "shut up" to the player, who spoling the game? who spamming with "gogogo"? Who destroying my fun?

Did i ever broke the rules? nope, i dont.

If there will be a good team nd stupid leader who's giveing a such a stupid orders like a: ll only, crouch (i will say later about crouch) all the time, gas all rooms, taze this one and this one too, they are aiming @ civ; i will not listen him. Why? i dont wanna die with gas in hand. But i will stay with my team.i say that again, i will not not listen his orders. i will stay behind and watch.

Did i ever broke the rules? nope, i dont.

Hmm, i can not really explaine you about "crouch" but i just say if you are staying up,you are in safe position. Much easyer.

I also want to say that @ pepper and some others: if you are use your favorite LL tactic, luring tactic, you are actually will never learn. Never. Pepper you are always repeat yourself that you are using diifferent ways. But actually you use only same and one way to play. I'm 100% sure you will not anderstend me again.

DeKA

28-09-09, 11:16 AM

Just to be clear:

Behave? hmm? saying "shut up" to the player, who spoling the game? who spamming with "gogogo"? Who destroying my fun?

being rude to others is not welcome on SOG servers and you should know that if you think that behavior like this will be tolerated you are wrong;
there are admins for taking care of servers, if you do it on your own you will face the consequences

Did i ever broke the rules? nope, i dont.

yes, you did and you should be lucky you are not globally banned, if you misprise that it simply means that our decision to not ban your was wrong, however it could be corrected in a short time

be sure if you will be caught on any further rule violation we ban you, and no its not a threat - its just finding the facts

as ex-member you should know our server's rules and follow them if you dont you will be treated like every other player

If there will be a good team nd stupid leader who's giveing a such a stupid orders like a: ll only, crouch (i will say later about crouch) all the time, gas all rooms, taze this one and this one too, they are aiming @ civ; i will not listen him. Why? i dont wanna die with gas in hand. But i will stay with my team.i say that again, i will not not listen his orders. i will stay behind and watch...

if there is a chosen leader you are supposed to follow his orders whether you like it or not;
there is always an option to leave if you dont like to play - if you will stay back that means you are not playing and taking a slot for other player who could play instead of you - in that case any admin is allowed to remove you from the server instantly

also making your own lethal tactics and spoiling the game for others like Haruno did - you said that you have learned from him - is equal to a ban...
there are relevant threads on forums and im sure you read them if not its high time to do it

you are not alone on servers and if other players want to play for score you can join them or leave; if you have team which plays for lethal hard tactics thats ok as long as its the decision made by whole team not only by you

Sepe

28-09-09, 01:38 PM

If there will be a good team nd stupid leader who's giveing a such a stupid orders
I also want to say that @ pepper and some others: if you are use your favorite LL tactic, luring tactic, you are actually will never learn. Never. Pepper you are always repeat yourself that you are using diifferent ways. But actually you use only same and one way to play

Whats your problem with the pepper's tactic and tactic of others that make you write so "angry"? I think everyone is free to choise his own way. And also, your talking like your tactics are the best.
"But actually you use only same and one way to play".Why, you follow him each time he play swat?!
"I'm 100% sure you will not anderstend me again." Yes infact I can't understand too what you would mean ... maybe you want us change our gamestyle in another one that looks like your?

burton

28-09-09, 02:36 PM

there is always an option to leave if you dont like to play - if you will stay back that means you are not playing and taking a slot for other player who could play instead of you - in that case any admin is allowed to remove you from the server instantly

Well some needs to be at the back. Some needs to cover the rear. Some needs to cover the team while they're making entry. These are all basic things in tactical games. Someone needs to do it, either it's you, me but someone needs to do it.

The thing is that this is mostly invisible work compared to say doing an entry. If you cover the team most of them don't probably notice it. Until things go wrong. And then you wonder "I thought *someone* got our back" but nobody did because all wanted to do an entry, be the hero of the day or whatever.

If I get banned for what I think of "staying back" (I don't know what joker did) then I don't really know what to say. Good job I guess.

Joker432

28-09-09, 03:30 PM

Whats your problem with the pepper's tactic and tactic of others that make you write so "angry"? I think everyone is free to choise his own way. And also, your talking like your tactics are the best.
"But actually you use only same and one way to play".Why, you follow him each time he play swat?!
"I'm 100% sure you will not anderstend me again." Yes infact I can't understand too what you would mean ... maybe you want us change our gamestyle in another one that looks like your?

Well, you don't mind or loose a "point" of my last post.

I repeat: you will never learn if you use your tactic. That what i said, that what i think.
i didnt said : common use my or burton tactic. Be more clever in your posts.

I didnt follow a pepper and i dont want to follow him. I just seen. You said "Us"? so that mean all cadets and new players use a same, luring *** tactic. I think.

And yes, for me, my tactic are best, as your tactic for you. Thats why we discuss.

And burton is right someone should cover team. Thats what i do in 70% of my gameplay. Ban for covering is just stupid, its like a Ban for camp in VIP server.

XmarksTheScot

28-09-09, 03:49 PM

And yes, for me, my tactic are best, as your tactic for you. Thats why we discuss.

Well i dont know that any tactic can be considered "best" each variety is better suited to some playing styles and situations.

We all do thing differently and by mixing things up and trying new things we learn.

But i would say that this is overall never at the expense of the leaders requested orders and tactics.

As have been said we play as a led team of guys and if the chosen leaders tactics dont suit then leave. as they would have to do if you were leader and not happy with your tactics.

But as a player i'll try any/all tactics to achieve a positive outcome - all swat, civ and sus out alive. if sacrifices are to be made they come in this order- sus swat civ. in that i mean that sus are the most expendable and working up to civ being the least.

DeKA

28-09-09, 03:52 PM

Well some needs to be at the back. Some needs to cover the rear. Some needs to cover the team while they're making entry. These are all basic things in tactical games. Someone needs to do it, either it's you, me but someone needs to do it.

The thing is that this is mostly invisible work compared to say doing an entry. If you cover the team most of them don't probably notice it. Until things go wrong. And then you wonder "I thought *someone* got our back" but nobody did because all wanted to do an entry, be the hero of the day or whatever.

burton pls read what is my answer written to before you start gainsaying ....

...
i say that again, i will not not listen his orders. i will stay behind and watch....

this is not covering backs but this is just muppeting and behavior like this wasnt, is not and and will be not tolerated

If I get banned for what I think of "staying back" (I don't know what joker did) then I don't really know what to say. Good job I guess.

taking rear guide is not similar with staying back due to not listening orders and watching, so please in the future dont try to put words i havent spoken into my mouth, ty