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burton
18-09-09, 06:39 PM
Instead of going with the normal "it will be great if they do it" will go with "nah". I'll try to shed some light on this issue from two points: from my perspective as a experienced SWAT4 player and from the perspective of a game developer. Consider this a warning, long rant ahead. If you don't like reading a lot of text, stop now.

First are the things that can be changed in a new game release and things that cannot be changed. When I think about SWAT4, I think it hasn't that much issues. It has bugs, yes, but so does every other game. It is unfortunate that the changes in the development team and publisher of SWAT4, basically Irrational Games bought by Take Two, resulted in every party just raising their arms and saying "it's not my problem". So the game has bugs.

I would argue however that the problems of SWAT4 are not in the game but the people. People suck. Why do they suck? Because simulators are hard. Because SWAT4 tries to simulate small team of operators on a mission in close-quarters environment. Only a small number of people can handle that. The more real-life concepts you introduce in a game, the more people you alienate. Most people want to have quick fun for 5 minutes and then get on with their lives. I won't blame them.

If we now think this from a game developer perspective. So you want to create a simulator game and not some generic shooter? Alright, fine, let's do it but there is this one thing called profit. Although probably every game developer would like to go crazy and show how innovative game they could develop, they don't. Why? Because companies need profit (= large number of sales) in order to pay these developers their paychecks. And were not talking about some three or five people here, Crytek (the developers of Crysis) have 550 people on their payroll (according to Wikipedia). That's a lot of people.

Simulators are a dying breed especially in the first person shooter genre. SWAT4 will probably be the last game of the series that has even some base on reality. If they do make SWAT5 I'm pretty sure it's going to be different. It's going to be more driven by profits and not by realism. Like I said, majority of people don't care.

How is SWAT5 is going to be different? If we look at one of my (ex-)favorite game series, Rainbow Six, we can clearly see how game developers change their product in order to gain more profit. How developers basically throw every aspect of realism away so that more people could play the game. It's business.

Talking about Rainbow Six makes my blood boil. The series has been diverted so far from the original three games that it is a disgrace to even refer the new games as being Rainbow Six games. I get so emotional on this matter because I started my CQB simulator history in 1998 with the original Rainbow Six. So if you want to know how different SWAT5 will probably be then you should probably look at the differences between Rainbow Six: Raven Shield and Rainbow Six: Vegas 2.

I always found it funny when I met older gamers than me. These oldies always complained about new games. How old games had better stories, better characters, better game play. And now when I look at what I've written I've become one of them. I've become that old grumpy gamer who complains how new games suck and how games were better when I was younger.

When I look at the generation of gamers that come after me I wonder if they will continue playing and enjoying simulator games. What I found funny that someone might even think Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 being good game because it's 'new' and at the same time ignore rest of the series as being too 'old'. What is these gamer's benchmark on realism?

I hope they don't make SWAT5. SWAT4 is a good game to end the series and put the brand to rest.

Eliittihemuli
18-09-09, 06:58 PM
burtons message made me speechless :goodpost:

Selena
19-09-09, 02:19 AM
Games are like fashion... If you don't keep up, you're going to lose customers... That's why you make many game modes... ;)

R6V and R6V2 are OK games in my opinion. Of course they are different... But, I like both old and new... I like the pace and dynamics there... The old one was... Fun in it's own way. New ways of fun come along.

I agree there is a TON of crap games out there... And there is more to come... But some golden titles holds the quality (Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Ace Combat, Grand Theft Auto)... Some change their style... Some evolve, adapt, change... You tell the developers what you want from the product you buy. Don't like it? Don't buy it!

The human aspect to gaming... Well, psychology aside... There is a lot of (insert all the bad words you know here)'s out there. So, what can you do? When you go online, most of the people you meet will fall into the bad category... And the more you start resenting players, the more those closer to "normal" will start resenting you. It's an evil circle. It is better to not judge before you see them in action or have talked to them.

*howls*

burton
19-09-09, 08:35 AM
Finally some real discussion on SOG forums.

Fashion? Heh, I guess that's the real problem here. Simulator games are not fashionable, they're not 'sexy'.

You really can't compare R6:Vegas to the other games. They have similar names but that's basically it. The way the game plays is just so different. In Vegas you have more action and dynamics because that's what most people think is fun, right? They don't want to spend time planning the mission in the mission editor, oh, I forgot, Vegas don't even have that. Run and shoot, little cover here and there to make it feel more tactical. Majority matters.

Isn't Rainbow Six series a prime example how "don't like, don't buy" doesn't work? What matters is majority, not the guys and gals who like tactical games. R6:Vegas was a success apparently because it got a sequel. So what do you think the type of message this sends to the developers? If I were a developer I would probably think that people don't like CQB simulators, they like run and shoot games. Majority matters.

If we look at Call of Duty 4 for example. According to Wikipedia it has sold 13 million copies. 13 million. Now if we take something like Rainbow Six Rogue Spear. I would be surprised it sold more than one million copies. It probably sold a lot less. Now compare these numbers 13 million vs. 1 million. See the difference? Other brings 13 million dollars and the other 1 million dollars (if we think that developer gets $1 from one sale). Why would anyone nowadays create a CQB simulator then? Well, they don't. Majority matters.

Developers have to appeal to majority to get more sales. Games are not cheap to produce. Again quoting Wikipedia Gears of War cost 10 million dollars to produce. It probably isn't surprise that Gears of War has these macho anabolic steroid eating towers killing bad guys? You appeal to majority. If there are women they are probably portrayed as eye candy, right? Majority matters.

DeKA
19-09-09, 10:53 AM
moved to the DR, as it slightly diverges from the exact subject of swat5 thread and to make a room for further open discussion

Joker432
19-09-09, 01:28 PM
Thoughts aloud:

Now (I will take only coop players) in swat 4
Constantly play approximately 25 - 35 persons whom game, basically, interests. Accordingly they share on two groups, where: 60 % - good players and 40 % - bad.

If to assume that these of 60 % - old players they for certain will not change to the favourite game. Accordingly, 40 % will pass in SWAt 5. To these to forty percent 60 % of absolutely new and ignorant players will increase. What will be is created on new servers (if they appear)? The first 2 years of ANYTHING in sense of tactics. And if SWAT5 will go in the footsteps of VEGAS that...

... That game will turn in new -removed- Unreal.

Even if game will announce as tactical game (I will remind too most was with Vegas)

Though... If you remember Swat4 has continued traditions Swat3.
But it was for a long time ago, so "no way" at the moment.

eh, and i think that swat 4 will have a servers for a long time like a some old & good games.

Sepe
19-09-09, 01:47 PM
Finally some real discussion on SOG forums.
A discussion can be interesting or not ... depend on who read it; If you don't care a thread wich where people discuss about cars you can't say no one care it. So, don't say so :)
For the rest, I agree with you. They probably will not make swat 5 for the reasons you listed. The style of swat is now old, as Selena said , "Games are like fashion... If you don't keep up, you're going to lose customers" . No more to say about swat 5 in my opinion, otherwise that it is an impossbile dream for us tactical gamers. But by the way it doesn't mean that tactical games are end, take a look to Arma series , especially to Arma 2, tactical and alot of sales it got.

I usually don't write much okay, so I'll end this with a thank you and have a nice day ( wohoho Im a rapper :p )

burton
19-09-09, 02:21 PM
Perhaps I should make one thing clear here. I'm not against other games like Call of Duty or Unreal Tournament. I have personally played the original Unreal Tournament a lot when I was younger. I really like UT99 and I still do play a wide variety of games.

What I'm getting here is the decline of simulation games (especially in FPS genre) and companies like Red Storm abandoning their old realism loving fan base for more profit.

A discussion can be interesting or not ... depend on who read it; If you don't care a thread wich where people discuss about cars you can't say no one care it. So, don't say so :)
For the rest, I agree with you. They probably will not make swat 5 for the reasons you listed. The style of swat is now old, as Selena said , "Games are like fashion... If you don't keep up, you're going to lose customers" . No more to say about swat 5 in my opinion, otherwise that it is an impossbile dream for us tactical gamers. But by the way it doesn't mean that tactical games are end, take a look to Arma series , especially to Arma 2, tactical and alot of sales it got.

I usually don't write much okay, so I'll end this with a thank you and have a nice day ( wohoho Im a rapper :p )

Yeah, I know ArmA 2. I've spend numerous hours playing Operation Flashpoint but not ArmA 2 itself. Some of my team members got it and it still seems to suffer from the same bugs that Operation Flashpoint did. ArmA2 is not CQB simulation though and the bugs I mentioned are very visible in indoor situations.

Bohemia Interactive Studio (developer of ArmA) also has ties to many nation's armies which use the core of the game as a training tool. I don't know about ArmA2's sales, but militaries have basically endless buckets of money so I'm pretty sure we'll see more ArmA in the future.

Spec_Operator
19-09-09, 11:05 PM
I guess it'd be best to go both ways. Put some passion into creating a really accurate simulation with todays technology AND create a fun mindless shooter in one game. It'd take some time for the producers, but if they really want to, I think they still could make a good game and put in a "fun" aspect, like a different game mode/difficulty setting to please run-and-gun players too. It'd take much longer to create such a game, but if it's done well, I could see a chance there.

Personally, I'm mainly counting on mods as far as realism goes (as some people here know^^). You have a group of programmers who do not care about profit at all, and who can make really good games out of normal action games. Sadly the SWAT modding community is rather small.

burton
20-09-09, 08:10 AM
I guess it'd be best to go both ways. Put some passion into creating a really accurate simulation with todays technology AND create a fun mindless shooter in one game. It'd take some time for the producers, but if they really want to, I think they still could make a good game and put in a "fun" aspect, like a different game mode/difficulty setting to please run-and-gun players too. It'd take much longer to create such a game, but if it's done well, I could see a chance there.


Do you think it works well in SWAT4?


Personally, I'm mainly counting on mods as far as realism goes (as some people here know^^). You have a group of programmers who do not care about profit at all, and who can make really good games out of normal action games. Sadly the SWAT modding community is rather small.

Indeed, Project Reality (http://www.realitymod.com/) (BF2), Insurgency (http://www.insmod.org/) (Half-Life 2), Red Orchestra (UT2004) etc. but these aren't CQB, they're in urban environment. And even if they would be fitted to CQB only we would get something like Counter-Strike. I think for good CQB game AI opponents are a requirement.

Spec_Operator
20-09-09, 10:07 AM
I can only guess as I'm no programmer or anything.

Do you think it works well in SWAT4?
You mean barricaded suspects vs co-op mode?
Well, no. Good co-op servers require strict moderation, so the game itself does not keep rambos out of that game mode, sadly. But I think SWAT4 isn't quite polished in some aspects anyway. This game shows a lot more promise tbh, SWAT could've been a lot better with some more development, and could've seperated run and gun from tactical co-op even more. Of course, there's always the money aspect.

CQB mods are of course harder to make, especially if they are to be realistic, so modders might have a hard time doing that. But I wouldn't say it was entirely impossible. Especially if the base game gives them a good start. If a SWAT5 was designed rather "gamey" but had good modding support (and some people who were up for it), and would show as much promise for realism as SWAT4 does, I think modders could make their own realism mods that actually come close to a simulation. It'd be especially good if a SWAT5 was designed with mods in mind.

But you've probably a more realistic view on the metter than my optimistic one here. I can only hope there are still some Devs who actually would invest some more time into a game to make it outstanding. I think profit and quality can both be made, but of course not as easily as just profit.